The Moral Puzzle at the Center of The Last of Us

In that mission after the cannibalism, Ellie is shocked and sad. His way of trying to cheer her up is answering all the questions she asked along the way at which he used scoff. It's not selfish at all, he's doing the best he can to get her to stop thinking about that experience. He's a broken character, a good man who's beyond his limit.

I think the issue is that the 'moral high ground' is lost by the Fireflies when they intentionally refuse to inform Ellie (and also Joel) that the procedure will claim her life. Joel only finds out about it because he pieced it together, and the duplicitous behavior of the Fireflies is what sets him down the violent path of saving Ellie. In many ways, you could say that the narrative is trying to warn about the dangers of lies (even lies by omission). Imagine how different the entire scenario would have been if the Fireflies just told Joel and Ellie from the beginning that the procedure would likely kill her (and that they wouldn't perform the procedure without their consent). This would have given Joel and Ellie time to consider the weight of their choices, and it would have also fostered respect towards the fireflies for being so open and honest about their intentions. Yet by choosing to withhold that information out of fear that Ellie (or Joel) would reject the procedure, they give Joel almost no time to process the full weight of what is happening and force him to make a quick and terrible decision out of pure desperation.

As a father of a 5 year old girl......I played this game before fatherhood, and I found myself thinking Joel did everything a normal father would do. After becoming a father and replaying the game......I am twice as steadfast in my decision. Joel is an actual real man in a broken video game world. The writing of this game is some of the best in any piece of entertainment ever.

I have achieved an understanding of why sarah's death hits so hard in the game. It's the crying. She's not just crying in pain, but fear. It's deeply upsetting. Her voice actress deserves an award if she didn't already get one

I’ve never seen someone so efficiently counter their own valid arguments in a previously disected video. This channel is a gift that keeps on giving!

The key here really is the Fireflies. I just beat the game this evening and was ranting to some friends about how the ending sort of betrayed the core thesis of the game. Had the Fireflies come off as even marginally less shady and a little more competent, then Joel’s decision to save Ellie would have been a lot more questionable. Instead, we see from their notes that they have no idea what they’re doing. It almost feels like they’re psyching themselves up for this big sacrifice because they NEED it to mean something. Yeah, it’s bad science, but the writers could have hand waved it to hint that it might have worked. But they didn’t. Then there’s the way they treated Joel and Ellie. There was no informed consent from Ellie. If she was given the choice, I think she would have sacrificed herself. That’s just who she is. And much like Tess, if Joel was given a chance to talk with her, he would have honored her choice. The whole thing could have been avoided. Instead, they try to bully a man who fought his way across the country with a teenage girl to look after, and expect him to just walk away. Joel lying to Ellie was bad, yes. I would argue indefensible. Buuuut cutting through the Fireflies like a hot knife through butter felt entirely justified. Hell, I would argue necessary. Even if I cared nothing for Ellie, I wouldn’t trust humanity’s last best hope to that lot.

the reasoning for joel not asking ellie about her past isnt because he was just “trying to find any daughter”. its because he probably knows what its like to be asked questions you arent ready to share yet, and possibly by just sharing things without her asking/when she asks would give her more inclination, and feel more comfortable sharing her past with him.

My guess is no one would even think twice about forgiving Joel's choice if he were Ellie's real father. Parents lie all the time. You have to constantly choose between honesty and lies depending on what keeps your child safe in each scenario. Emotional safety is important too, but you can't tell me you honestly believe a parent should take their child's opinion and choice into consideration when it could result in their immediate death.

I think Joel actually cared deeply about Tess. You pointed out the unintentional feeling that slips out when he sees the wound, but I'd argue his behavior toward her in that scene wasn't distance, rather, him trying desperately to be dispassionate and cold, but he can't help how much he feels behind his gruff exterior.

I find it interesting how Joel(father figure) and Marlene(mother figure) both support one of the core motivations Ellie. That being companionship and purpose, but neither will allow her to choose between the two. This is because they’re afraid of her choosing one that doesn’t support their needs.

YES, he was right, and that’s why Part 2 doesn’t work. Fireflies didn’t give Ellie a choice, they wanted her brain whether she wanted to do the procedure or not. That’s removal of personal freedom, and didn’t even let her ‘father’ see her or say goodbye, and instead tried to march him out of the building without the promised payment under threat of being shot. All on the basis of a “maybe”, i.e no guarantee they can produce a cure even if Joel let them take Ellie. Also, who’s to say they have pure intentions. “We have a cure but you gotta do exactly what we say or you won’t get it” kind of mentality?

I think the point Druckmann and Straley are trying to make with the fireflies in the game is that the fireflies are just like every other group in the wasteland. They're ruthless, disorganized, and overall incompetent. They are a group that is stuck in the past, trying to bring back a world that is long gone. I mean think about it, Joel travelled the ENTIRETY of the United States just to get this girl to the fireflies and what do they give him? Absolutely nothing, I mean how in the living hell is that not completely ruthless? From Joel's perspective it is a no-brainer to save Ellie. Ellie is essentially his daughter at this point and he finally has a sense of purpose in his life after twenty years of surviving through torture. The possibility of a cure being spread by a group that is already under resourced and not doing well is quite unlikely, and even if they did get the cure, would they even spread it. They have already shown how ruthless they can be and having a cure would make them a #1 target by anyone to get that cure. Ellie had no clue going in she was going into die and neither did Joel.

It really never made sense to me as to why they needed to scoop out her brain. The fungus moves to the brain through the nervous system, right, so wouldn't there be cordyceps in her spinal fluid? Why not extract samples from her through spinal taps? She lives, and you have a constant source of fungus to work with. Also, I think the fireflies not telling Joel or Ellie was them not planning to give them a choice either way for Ellie to begin with. I think it was for the fireflies a means to have a massive power play to hold a cure over people and them not even having a good means of distribution anyway. I know it's claimed they did other tests to see if if they could keep her alive but it still all seems very strange

As a father myself, I can tell you that I would do the same thing Joel did, especially with how shady the fireflies are. Call it being selfish but there is no guarantee they would’ve even found a cure. Her death could have just as easily been meaningless. I would’ve given her a chance at having a life of her own.

29:36 Everyone always talks about the "baby girl" and rightfully so, but it's Ellie's "Joel.." right after he says it that rips my heart out every single time.. 💔

I haven't watched the video yet. But I love how, in the discussion of Joel, everyone bloody forgets that the living Mcguffin, Ellie, is infected with a bloody fungus! Something that needs a specific environment to survive and thrive. Killing Ellie kills the Firefly's best chance at a cure. Because killing Ellie kills the ecosystem the fungus thrived in. Doing this forces the Firefly's to either: - Rush to study Ellie and the spore samples as quickly as possible before decomposition sets in with Ellie. And the fungus and its spores die. - Transplant the Zombie creating spores to a new host. We know how well that usually goes for everyone that isn't Ellie. The Firefly's only real play would have been to keep Ellie alive. And essentially use her as a lab rat. Taking a biopsy of the spores, letting her heal, studying what they have, rince and repeat. If this happened then you could argue Joel is a monster. But there current plan - kill Ellie to get to the Spores... It may be debatable if Joel is a monster. But he absolutely saved Ellie's life that day in more ways than she could imagine. All because the Firefly's were about to throw the baby iut with the bathwater.

FatBrett provides a key insight here. The writers did not provide the viewer with enough information, of a sufficiently believable science, to believe that the firefly doctor is the one and only doctor in the country who is capable of crafting an effective therapy, nor that the broken down resources of that clinic are sufficient to make the therapy, nor that Ellie is the one and only immune person in the country to be the source for what is required, nor that the only way to obtain that material is that it is necessary to kill her. I realize now that I came away from this story doubting all four of those propositions. And Joel could also reasonably doubt those propositions. Furthermore, the writers did not give the viewer or Joel any reason, given the reality of that world, to trust those people in even small matters, let alone with the life of his daughter. The fireflies effectively taking Ellie at gunpoint confirms the doubts.

Honestly, I've always interpreted the ending differently. Let's take a look at the scene in the car. Joel says: "There is no cure, the Fireflies let us go. I'm sorry." And Ellie does not answer this in any way, she just turns away. Next is the scene in which Joel makes a promise to Ellie. Just look at Ellie's facial animation after the words "I promise". I think the actress and animators made it pretty clear that Ellie doesn't believe Joel. She knows that what he says is more or less a lie. She knows that he doesn't tell her something. But what does Ellie say to Joel? "Okay". Joel lied to her face, she knows it, but she accepts the lie. Why? I think because she realizes that she wants to live happily with Joel. Joel gives her this opportunity, and she grabs it. She kind of says to herself, "He's hiding something, but he's making it possible for us to live together without any worries, so I'll take it." The sequel, of course, refutes this, because there Ellie is shocked that Joel lied to her, so I consider these scenes solely in the context of "The Last of Us", without a sequel

God I'm 6 minutes in and realise that I STILL can't watch that scene with Sarah and not cry despite how many damn times I've seen it 😭😭😭

It also helps that Ellie is not the only person they have done this experiment on as you find out in that level. Why sacrifice her knowing that previous experiments have failed?