Sam Harris & Rupert Spira debate the primacy of consciousness (excerpt)

The full 90 minute interview is available with a subscription to Sam Harris's Making Sense podcast at samharris.org/%E2%80%8B. That will give you access to all of his full length conversations. This one is from the Waking Up series and is called The Nature of Awareness.

"Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else." - Erwin Schrodinger

I love that Sam asks rupert all the same things his students ask him, just with bigger words 😄

This is like my left brain and right brain having a conversation.

Sam is a highly intelligent being and asks good questions. But Rupert is just a master .

The anesthesia example is a conflation of the contents of consciousness and consciousness itself.

I love this discussion/debate; however, it is just entertainment. I have a lot of respect for both of these gentlemen. Sam Harris is a brilliant logician, but you either get it or you don't. No amount of thinking, no matter how stealthy and brilliant, will ever get you there. It's circular. You have to STOP thinking long enough and often enough to begin to understand. There is no “thought” per se, in understanding the infinite. Just a profound, silent knowing. It's humbling, to say the least. Ego cannot enter that state. This is where the idea of surrender fits in. Does "consciousness" create reality? What is reality? There would only be one way to know what is reality. Consciousness, which will continue to create endless reality as long as you want to continue the chase.

Its more like a conversation between mind and consciousness.

Good to see advaita vedanta is being soo deeply explored by the western thinkers . Let Shri Adi Shankara's immense knowledge be spread 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏 On namah shivaya .... Lead us from unreal to real ; lead us from darkness onto light ; lead us from death to immortality...

I think Rubert didn't want to shock Sam by saying that Time is just the product of our mind

This is one of the most important conversations to be had - and here it is between two of the most qualified people capable of having it. I really hope this happens more often.

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness." - Max Planck

Though Rupert makes valid points, I think Sam's ontological agnosticism is the more intellectually honest position at least for now, given how little we know about consciousness from a scientific point of view. Consciousness is unquestionably the epistemological ground of being, but can we confidently make the claim that it is also the ontological ground of being? Some people will say yes, but like Sam I'm agnostic on this one for now, though the view of consciousness-only certainly could turn out to be true. The philosophical division between ontology and epistemology may just prove to be spurious down the line, since even so-called objective, "third-person" observations are happening within the confines of our own subjectivity. Remaining open to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be, is a more enlightened attitude we can take rather than prematurely choosing a position and criticizing anyone who doesn't agree with us. Even so, the general tendency of scientific communities to ridicule anything other than a materialist world view is truly unfortunate, and I think it will take the sincere and humble collaboration of scientists and contemplatives to even begin to unravel the mystery of consciousness. At the end of the day, we have to keep in mind that people have different roles to play in the world, so you can disagree with someone but still recognize and appreciate the value he/she is adding to the world. Scientists have their roles to play and the same with contemplatives. Sam’s role is to point out the dangers of religious dogmatism while presenting spirituality in the most objective and scientific way possible as he sees it, and Rupert’s role is to guide people wake up to their true nature based on the traditional teachings of Advaita Vedanta. So it’s only natural that the two have differences in their views, but it is precisely this creative tension that fuels progress and help the world become a better place.

For Sam it is shaky territory because he has not experienced it for himself yet. 💕🌻

Rupert takes on materialism in a quiet but powerful way.

Sam is so articulate and presents what he thinks is a challenge to Rupert. Rupert is unperturbed because he is already home. Too bad Sam doesn’t want to take that little extra step and listen a little more deeply!

Rupert is a beast-his patience and clarity as well as his deep understanding of non-duality makes him a formidable spreaker for every scientist without exception !

As the great Zen master Shunryu Suzuki wrote: “In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few.” That is all.

Notice how Sam makes a point and then "closes the door" on any rebuttal from Rupert, who is too kind to kick "the door" open? Sam's point about anesthesia and losing 30 minutes of time hinges on the assumption that time is real. That consciousness exists within time. Time only exists as a concept in the mind. The mind itself exists within consciousness. "The truth is simple. If it were complicated, everyone would understand it." - Walt Whitman

Sam Harris has a lot of experience talking with people of differing beliefs, and I think it shows here. This is not so easy to navigate smoothly.