How Snowgrave Affects Kris and Why Susie Matters | Deltarune Theory

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So Kris's way of clinging to a sense of control is by relinquishing control. Their way of keeping people safe is to choose companions who won't listen to them. Because they don't trust themself. Interesting.

How much Kris and Susie care about each other is severely overlooked when it comes to theories and stuff

It feels like Susie gets left out of a lot of the discussion around deltarune, so It’s nice that she’s talked about here!

Also, at the beggining of the city, there's a save point that says something like "neither mean girls or fluffy boys are with you, reluctantly, you're filled with the power of that cat sign" and if you come back after being reunited with susie and ralsei, it says "you are mostly filled with the power of fluffy boys and mean girls, the cat sign still comprises about one percent of it" and I love how it shows Kris really cares about them, it's just so sweet

I've always been interested in how Susie is unique in that she can actively choose to not listen to us, from refusing to do anything but fight for the first half of Chapter 1, to not listening to our- the soul's- choices during the scenes where the cameras focuses on her. She's like the opposite of Noelle, where in Snowgrave the soul seems to actively be able to control Noelle when the screen goes black, taking hold and controlling her actions, despite literally being focused on Susie during those two scenes, we can't even change one of her dialogue choices. She is completely out of our control, only listening to Kris because she wants to. There's something up with Susie, something that puts her just out of reach of our control, and considering how is a specially her who was teased by Clamgirl in Undertale, and how a huge theme in Snowgrave is about being able to control the other characters, I can't help but wonder if this unique aspect she has will be what eventually saves Kris in the normal route, and will cause her to be the final challenge we face in Snowgrave.

I view Kris making a fountain in the normal route as a act of desperation, out of fear of Susie not wanting to be friends without constant dark world dopamine.

Kris' motive is definitely a gambit for freedom imo. Everything we know about who they are without the player's influence indicates that this is someone who desperately wants to be free.

Fun fact I learned replaying Chapter 1 yesterday: if you do nothing when Susie suggests Kris and Ralsei fight her and Lancer (the choice between "Let's Fight" and "Let's Not"), for a single frame before the choice box is interrupted, "Let's Not" is highlighted! Which means even that early in Chapter 1, Kris doesn't think of her as an enemy! Maybe that's not new information, but I think it's interesting that Kris shows signs of respecting Susie even before their conversation in the elevator.

Interesting video. It makes me wonder if future weird routes will be harder to pull off as the story progresses and if we'll need to actively start forcing scenarios that cause Kris to split off from everyone else to cause more in the future instead of just waiting for a point where we do split up from everybody. It would fit with the idea that we're breaking the game by fabricating these situations that would allow us to exert our control more often

Regarding 5:30: I think the screen doesn't transition to Noelle in the Snowgrave route because we the player don't want Kris to let Ralsei know what happend. If we remember back to Chapter 1, when we followed Susie's breakout, when we returned to Kris and Ralsei, Ralsei was talking to Kris about something and immediately stopped as soon as the player returned. I think the player wants to prevent Ralsei finding out what happend and that's why they refuse to transition. Ralsei senses something is wrong with Kris and tries to make the player "leave" (transition) by asking things like "I wonder whats happening in there" and similar statements. Ralsei isnt a villian to Kris and susie, he is a threat/villain to the player! That is my theory.

After seeing how high the stakes were risen in Chapter 2, I'm invested in seeing how the Alternate Route's theme of manipulation will persist in later Chapters, Kris being in a Dark World with their mother really opens up opportunities for genuine heartache Great analysis on Susie's character, her significance is an interesting topic (After all, there's a reason she's the character that Clam Girl talks about when foreshadowing DeltaRune)

I kind of think Susie represents the idea of agency and independence, both in the story and personally, to Kris. Since Kris seems to be a person struggling with a sense of control and agency they are naturally drawn to her. Ironic for the person who literally delivers the line "your choices don't matter". Noelle on the other hand seems to represent a complete loss of control, some one lacking even the most basic abilities to stand up for themselves and make decisions, at least if you reenforce her learned helplessness. Ralsei is a little more unclear at this point- which is, you know, intentional. Perhaps he's someone who believes in fate, or even some one determined to *make sure fate happens*, like taking control and planning too far.

Considering the Snowgrave route is also called the Weird Route, imagine how different things would get if you went and made Noelle do weird things like casting Ice Shock onto the walls or using Snowgrave on a traffic cone

Please consider that Kris and Ralsei are very clearly and provably both aware of the Player and conspiring against the Player in such a way that is designed for the player not to notice. There is a distinct possibility that the entire purpose of the adventures in the dark worlds is a distraction meant to keep the player on the path to their own banishment. If this were the case, Kris would have to engineer said path in its entirety before the player entered their world. It is possible that while Kris was successful in keeping the player trapped upon this path, they may not have accounted for the possibility that, within this path, such a strange route could be taken that the player would be able to finagle things to have such terrible consequences for Berdly and Noelle. That being said, while the harm that comes to Berdly and Noelle would be an undesirable outcome, Kris would be forced to continue upholding this conspiracy and proceeding to keep the player on track to their own banishment due to the fact that revealing the conspiracy to the player, or worse, giving up and allowing the player to escape the path, is a far more disastrous situation than the regrettable sacrifice of a single bluebird. This is why everything ends the same way, no matter what you do.

It was always my idea that during the castle portion of a Snowgrave route, The whole game goes into a sort of "Limp Mode", Trying to get through the important parts of the story and getting to the end before something else goes horribly wrong. The only one who's detached from this is Spamton, who seems to have a sort of disconnect from everything else, Thanks to their interaction with... Whoever was on the phone. Think about it: The castle's been invaded by Spamton, Seemingly without Queen knowing or caring, Otherwise, She'd of done something. All the castle's traps and puzzles have been removed, Replaced with Pipis. Susie and Noelle's entire scene with the Ferris wheel is cut. Ralsei just tells Queen about the roaring. No Queen boss or mech. It's as if you went SO far off script, That the Game ITSELF is panicking, Rushing you through what's left and getting you to the end as fast as possible. It adds a new level of creepy to it all, As if the game thought it'd be impossible for you to screw things up this badly. The game's basically like "There's nothing to worry about, Their choices don't matter." But when you find a loophole around that caveat in Noelle. The game doesn't know what to do.

Again, I love the portrait of who's the bad guy in the Snowgrave Route. US. We are the bad guy. No one can say otherwise. We chose all the killing, we chose to scar Noelle and honestly it makes me feel sorry for Kris. Toby knows how to make people who have to do everything in the game feel horrible And that line. That. SINGLE. Line. YOU whispered Noelles name . It's just so... mystifying. And I adore it

holy fuck, how did you make kris's end-game actions make MORE sense in the snowgrave route?? and im only like 10% joking ??? LIKE. DUH. now that you've pointed it out, it actually makes A Lot Of Sense that kris would want susie, their mom, and a police officer around after the events of snowgrave. that makes me wonder all the more about their motivations in the normal route ! why do they seem to want undyne (or at the very least, a police officer) to be in the dark world with them if they're just having a fun adventure with their friend? -- which, as i recall, is the prevalent explanation for kris's actions in a non-snowgrave route. my brain wants to dive wildly into "did dess fall into a dark fountain? is kris trying to find her, after reconnecting with noelle?" but that's like, the best ive got for it. gosh this is just such a good point that i haven't seen anywhere else, thanks as always for giving me more notes to add to my deltarune theory google docs ^.^

i have a theory on why Kris wants to open a dark fountain. i like your idea on susie undyne and toriel, i now also like to think that they where called for protection; but that doesen't fully explains why kris wants to open it in the first place. when you seal a dark fountain your LOVE increase, your HP increase, your ATK increase, you become stronger. in UNDERTALE after a genocide route Frisk/Chara begins to act withot the control of the player: they walk without our control, they kill asgore without our control, and at the end they destroy the world without our control ("Since when were you the one in control"), basically they become FREE. so maybe Kris wants to seal as many fountains as they can, so that they can get lot's of EXP, without killing anyone, and use it to rebel against the player...?

i imagine being constantly controlled against your will would make someone completely free and independent like susie seem very appealing. not to mention, ralsei’s direct acknowledgment and complete compliance with the player is probably also why kris don’t like him nearly as much as susie or noel.