Why Is God Hidden From Us? Lukas Ruegger vs Alex O'Connor

The whole idea that an atheist should put in work and is secretly just harbouring a lack of receptiveness to god, could be argued for the theist as well who fervently accepts god, and would continue to do so if faced with poor evidence. Why is it that the theist is not expected to constantly search to disprove his own beliefs in the same way that the atheist is expected to seek god out to have any valid claims to make?

Well that was a frustrating 90 minutes. I understand why the discussion focused on Alex's personal experience, and he raised some very good points about divine hiddenness and nonresistant nonbelief, but the fact that Lukas and Justin ended up practically giddy over the prospect of Alex nearing his Road to Damascus moment shows that the most powerful arguments for divine hiddenness as evidence against existence of God were left untouched. First, there's the very fact that Alex is just about the best case scenario of a nonresistant nonbeliever who has dedicated years of his life to understanding the Christian faith to the point of participating in most if not all the activities expected of a typical Christian believer and yet has still been unable to flip the switch from unbelief to belief speaks volumes for the chances of the billions of people who do not have the luxury of time and resources to indulge in such pursuits -- i.e. they have no chance. Hence it was a very parochial discussion from start to finish, with no relevance at all for anyone who wasn't raised in a family/community that isn't a least nominally Christian. That brings me to the second issue -- what I call the birthplace lottery. Unless you're born in a time and place where you're indoctrinated in the Christian faith as a child, or at the very least, a place where Christianity is not taught as a false or alien religion, then you're almost completely out of luck. 99.8% of all Turkish citizens are registered as Muslims at birth, and even the most optimistic religious surveys show that only 0.5% of the adult population are Christians, at most. What does that say about the power and motivations of God when a little childhood indoctrination is enough to inoculate a person against Christianity for life? I know Alex has raised the geographical (and historical) distribution of religions in the context of divine hiddenness in a previous discussion, so I am puzzled as to why he didn't at least mention it this time. As with any scientific or legal analysis, statistical outcomes are far more conclusive than personal experience, and it's amazing how quickly God disappears when you pull back from, say, personal accounts of miraculous escapes from car wrecks to the ebb and flow of fatal road accident statistics as car safety standards and driving patterns change over the years. Finally, there's famous example which again shows why any dissection of Alex's personal experience of divine hiddenness is moot. Jeffrey Dahmer is perhaps the most notorious serial killer in American history, killing at least 17 boys and young men before he was caught and jailed in 1991. But before he himself was murdered three years later, a local pastor involved in prison ministry befriended Dahmer and eventually led him to the faith and baptized him, even receiving a written testimony about how God had miraculously saved him from another murder attempt while in jail. There's little doubt that Dahmer was a Christian when he died. Ignoring the fact that God appears to have chosen to remain hidden from Dahmer until after his decade-long killing spree, there's the fact that all of his victims were young -- 14 to 32 -- and from impoverished and vulnerable backgrounds, many of them from gay ethnic minorities. Unlike Dahmer, who had nothing but time to ponder the nature of life, death, and eternity while languishing in prison, his victims had no such opportunity either in life or death. It's possible, even probable that some of the victims were Christians, but it's almost certain that most were not, and since God knew they were going to be slaughtered before their time, Christians need to explain why they were not presented with at least the same opportunity of salvation that their murderer was given before he died. Of course, I picked a very emotive example here, but the same could be said for the tens of thousands of young non-Christians who died in the 2004 tsunami, or the millions who have died in famines in Muslim countries in Africa over the last few decades. Christian apologists love it when the discussion focuses on the experiences of Christians and non-Christians living in societies where Christianity holds significant sway in society because it allows them to pretend that God gives everyone a reasonable chance to choose to be saved. The divine hiddenness objection explodes this pretense, but only if you expand the discussion beyond the parochial interests and personal experiences of a bunch of western middle-class apologists and philosophers.

Regarding the argument comparing a relationship with God with an online relationship, it would be more like being in a chat room that shows only one user online (yourself), and sending message after message receiving no response. Eventually you begin to respond to yourself, and then tell people you have an online relationship with another person. But you can't show anyone any messages from that person or proof that they exist, because none have been sent except from you.

As a teenager contemplating suicide, going out at night and looking up at the beautiful stars begging god to reveal himself and to make the suffering stop, I was met with complete silence. It was only imagining my mother and grandmother crying over my body that I forced myself to continue living. I will never forget that moment, that soul-crushing silence. God is not hidden, god is non-existant

Pretty much all of the answers given by Lukas work for pretty much every other religion and magical explanation

I don't understand Justin asking "why not try on Christianity in a leap of faith" at 1:00:40. Why doesn't Justin try on Islam for a year? Like seriously, why doesn't he do all practices, grow a beard and truly walk as a believer of Mohammed? I would tune into that podcast.

I'm so glad that you've been discussing this argument recently. As someone who used to be a devout believer and actually lived a "christian lifestyle" until the age of 20, everything that I had learned about Christianity and the bible made it seem like it would be impossible for me to be able to leave the religion the way I did: exclusively studying the bible and going to church/youth group/bible study until I couldn't justify all of the logical issues that kept coming up. How can we reconcile the way god is described in the bible as being so obvious when we can't seem to find any evidence he exists? But, unlike you, a "religious experience" wouldn't change my mind because I've actually had those. Why is that not persuasive to me? Because I've since had even more powerful "spiritual experiences" without the need of a god. I don't believe anything supernatural is happening. There is limited research on this, but it seems some people are prone to "spiritual experiences" and others are not. What is definitely true is that a religious experience with the Christian god alone does nothing to hand wave away all of the logical flaws in the bible. Edit: the research paper I mention is called "Sensing the presence of gods and spirits across cultures and faiths"

I don't like that they were kind of conflating 'resistant non-believer' with 'someone who wouldn't want to worship the christian God'. It is entirely possible for someone to be non-resistant in the sense that if evidence of theism were shown to them, they would believe God exists. But then for them to ALSO have the opinion that the christian god, as presented in the bible, is not something worthy of much respect.

The only "overwhelming experience" that probably made me at least "believe" in god happened to me when I was very young (like 5 years old young) and it was the genuine, irrational fear of accidentally saying that I didn't believe in god (even just in my head) that I developed this compulsive and obsessive habit of saying phrases like "I believe in god or else I'll go to hell." So yeah, it's very weird that an omniscient god would do that, especially to a 5-year-old since it only traumatized me and made the whole relationship based on fear instead of love and respect. Long story short, when I stopped believing in god, the irrational fear went away like magic. It took about 12 years until I got to that point.

Why are people so concerned with "the resistance" against God instead of questioning why people want there to be such a thing? It seems that wanting God to exist is the main reason for most people's beliefs in God(s). The "wanting" seems to be at least as questionable as "the resistance".

It's nice to come home and see this uploaded just now

As a Christian, Alex is by far my favorite atheist thinker. I really appreciate his openness, level-headedness, and the way he clearly articulates his thoughts. Looking forward to future content! :)

Incredible conversation. Thank you for this

“Just trust me, give up all your reasoning faculties and suspend disbelief and then if you just believe anything without a shred of evidence and thinking about it, then god will reveal herself to you.” The older I get the more it is amazing to me how much credence people give to religion and how much time is wasted listening to demagoguery and empty words.

I'm glad to see people having formal, freindly and respectful debates in the modern day and age.

Remaining hidden is remarkably easy for imaginary beings, and very convenient for their followers.

I do appreciate this Christian channel; they seem more open minded and honest than most.

This conversation feels weirdly cathartic - like resolving an argument with someone you care about and moving on together, once again on the best of terms.

It’s so obvious to me. The quantity and quantity of evidence that should be expected to sufficiently prove a extraordinary claim like the existence of a loving personal god is in no way subtle. Clear, tangible, repeatable and testable proofs are a absolute minimum. God presumably would have the knowledge and resources to provide this evidence and has not.

what an amazing conversation, thank you