The Rejection of Nature and the Need for a Return with JONATHAN PAGEAU | EMP Podcast 133

The idea that constraint is necessary for meaning helped me look at the rest of my life in a better way. Thanks for this talk.

Awesome conversation

It's the net that makes tennis fun and meaningful. The greatest players continue to play because they love it. Love is both fun and meaningful.

The solving boredom really does have a cost. I remember growing up in the 90s and 00s and being bored and the solution was walk around in the neighborhood and find one of my friends or go to their house or call a friend on the phone that was only a phone and do something together. Today if I get bored that is never my first thought, there’s an infinite sea of information and recreation on my phone and talking to a real person I care about is not my first option much of the time, and that’s not even a conscious choice I make seemingly. But am I happier learning new things or enjoying things I like on my phone rather than talking to my friends or family or seeing them? Certainly not.

Eeey I've been waiting for another one of these

Glad to be introduced to you through Jonathan, as I’m sure a lot of people will. This was a great episode, now I’m on to a deep dive of your channel, starting with Hsieh, because I like Vervaeke and cog sci. Thanks and subscribed!

“Love is an existential stance…toward the world or a person…”. Vervaeke. I think that’s what he said. ❤️. Wonderful sharing here.

39:08 “agency beyond an individual” and kids & phones technology “it’s like fighting a demon” 💯

22:15 basketball illustration and then Pageau’s response about misconceptions of hierarchy. ❤

In America freedom is about the idea that our rights are endowed to us by our creator, and not the political state. It’s political freedom like the first amendment right to worship.

So appreciated Rafe's take on ARC & stewardship. (And the whole chat was great, thanks)

Ordered gardening predates the enlightenment by about a thousand years or more but I understand the sentiment... don't be confused play the seeming randomness the English garden. It oftentimes takes more planning and organizational precision then almost any other form.

The culture that connects us to the land connects us to each other.

1:07:00 this kairos moment point and illustration that Jonathan makes is really good. It’s why one can’t create a new religion. Or anything completely novel.

Great conversation. We need to spread the idea of subsidiary mixed in with the wildness of the natural world that Pageau mentioned - Far and wide.

1:14:27 Grim! Remember, Embody. + my personalist knowing. ❤

Really enjoyed this conversation, Rafe! A lot of great insights shared! I appreciated the discussion around how constraints are necessary and actually enable a greater freedom, with the guitar and family stories. (Especially constraints on technology and the will to power/control) Also enjoyed the discussion of subsidiarity and a more healthy role for hierarchy, with the basketball story. I was initially surprised by the overemphasis on Christianity and Christian values as some sort of "solution" to the many challenges of our times, but maybe I misinterpreted the emphasis. The Christian Moral Ethos you reference as foundational to our culture, I would suggest, didnt just originate with one man who lived about 2000 years ago, but came from many rich cultural traditions stretching back much much further in time, from Pagan traditions, the Jewish Torah, Eastern Buddhist and Hindu influences and of course Plato and many other Western/Continental influences. (As Vervake does a good job of tracing in his work) For a taste of some of the older originating sources I highly recommend Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Kimmerer. In the first chapter she cleverly compares a Native American creation myth with the Jewish/Christian story of the Garden of Eden. In the Schamchtenberger, Vervake, McGilchrist conversation you referenced, Rafe, the suggestion that we need A religion (to constrain self destructive behaviors in society at large) seemed suspicious. Not so much the religious part, but the "a" part of the phrase. This seems to suggest some sort of global religion, is the "answer." This sounds like it fails the same tests as Harari's one world government idea, except taking it into the realm of spirit/divine. Pageau makes a strong case that such efforts are bound to fail like the tower of Babel, and we're much better off with a multiplicity of ways of relating to that realm of existence. Anyways thanks again for the thought provoking chat! Keep it up!

Excited for this

This is going to be good, I can feel it!!

The Ringing Cedars of Russia books are a great resource for this topic of thought!